DVLA TROUBLE

[APDevelopments]

Hi.
As some of you are aware I'm in the process of buying a extreme Murcielago.
on its registration document its registered as a Orange Toyota MR2 2.0 injection.
I phoned the DVLA to get advice on how to change the details to a Toyota MR2 Murcielago replica. Or similar.
As expected I got a load of bull down the phone saying I need to fill in section 7 and supply receipts of the body conversion.
Then he said the car will need testing for safety?  Wtf
Firstly the previous owner does not have any receipts of the build or putting in a MR2 Turbo engine.
As this was done a few owners ago.
Then he said I'm buying a dangerous car at my own risk. 
I know that if a copper pulls me over it will be because it's registered as a Toyota MR2. Not. Lambo.
Has anybody had experience of this?
Please let me know.

[Lacie]

Has anybody had experience of this?

Yes, quite a bit

I’m a bit of a lurker on the forums but I've built a number of registered turnkeys and had to take them for all forms of inspection checks with the DVLA as well as SVA/IVA’s. I would suspect that the "safety check" will be the basic IVA which you have no choice but to oblige. If you choose not too, they’ll de-register your car. You could be lucky and they may offer to change your V5 without inspection but in my experience its becoming more rare. They’ll give you a date and time at which you have to deliver the car to their centre. They may also insist that the car is delivered (not driven) to their centre.

To open a can of worms on all this registering, if the police pull you over because its registered as a Toyota MR2 but looks like a Lambo (the same with the Peugeots and Ferraris) they have the power to arrest and seize the vehicle on the spot. Most of the time you can get away with being pulled over but there are some tossers out there that will take it off you out of sheer jealousy. It all falls under Regulation 16:

16(1) Where any alteration is made to a vehicle so as to make any of the particulars set out in the registration document incorrect, the registered keeper shall deliver to the Secretary of State -

(a) notification of the alteration;
(b) except where the registration document has been or may have been lost, stolen or destroyed, the registration document.

16(2) If the alteration makes any of the particulars shown on the vehicle licence or nil licence incorrect, the registered keeper shall also deliver to the Secretary of State the appropriate licence, unless it is lost, stolen or destroyed.

16(3) The Secretary of State may require the registered keeper to furnish such evidence as he may reasonably require to show that the alteration has taken place.

16(4) On receiving notification under this regulation the Secretary of State shall, subject to regulation 15, if he is satisfied that the vehicle has been altered in the way notified to him, -

(a) record the alteration in the register;
(b) send to the registered keeper a new registration document showing the correct particulars; and
(c) in a case falling within paragraph (2), issue to the registered keeper a new vehicle licence or nil licence showing the correct particulars.

If you know the particulars are not correct (which you do):

Correction of registration document

14.—(1) Where the keeper of a vehicle believes that the particulars in the registration document issued in respect of that vehicle are, or have become, inaccurate, he shall forthwith notify the Secretary of State of the inaccuracy.

(2) Notification under paragraph (1) shall be accompanied by the registration document, unless it has been, or may have been, lost stolen or destroyed.

(3) Where the Secretary of State believes that the particulars in the registration document issued in respect of a vehicle are inaccurate—

(a)if the document has not been sent to him in accordance with paragraph (2), he may require the registered keeper of the vehicle to send it to him;.
(b)whether or not he has received the document, he may correct the particulars in the register; and.
(c)after correcting the particulars he shall, unless he has not received the registration document as required by paragraph (2) and subject to regulation 15, send a registration document containing the correct particulars to the registered keeper.

NB: Comitting any of the above Offences carries a Power of Arrest/Seizure of vehicle.

The Murci (and the 360 and 430) all have their monocoque/chassis altered and therefore are considered by the DVLA to be “Kit Conversions”. Provided it has two original major components from the donor vehicle untouched (engine / transmission / suspension / steering or both axles), the vehicle will need to go through a basic IVA/SVA test and it'll be awarded a new number plate from the date of manufacture of the vehicle. The IVA is around £450 last time I took one in.

The sticking point you may face with the Lambo is:

16(3) The Secretary of State may require the registered keeper to furnish such evidence as he may reasonably require to show that the alteration has taken place.

With "kit conversions" this usually means the ability to prove original identity and parts purchased with receipts. I usually have a collection of A4 wallets stuffed with receipts and from my experience they don't go through them all, they just flick through them and pull the odd one out. Its a bit late now but the first law of building any kit car is keep ALL receipts and its something most responsible builders will do. You need as much evidence as possible on your side because if they bring its identity into question they will issue your car with a Q plate (they'll also issue a Q if you don't have 2 major components as standard on the car).

[APDevelopments]

Interesting reading.
The problem is that the previous owner does not have any receipts of the build.
It's had a few owners since it was completed so I would guess that they have got lost.
I have HPI the car and is all clear.
It was MOTed today and has no advisories.
It will be insured as a Lambo replica kit car. Hence the crazy cost of insurance.
The reg doc says the colour is correct. Orange.
But does say MR2.
What else I need to do?
I've been looking at the DVLA website.
Is a extreme Murcielago classed as a rebuilt vehicle or a radically altered vehicle? 

Link below
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/overview

Am I buying into a pile of problems with the car?

[Lacie]

Well, its not an MR2 and the MOT is meaningless in regards to the vehicles safety but its entirely up to you.

From a purely legal perspective, none of us who build an Extreme replica have a choice, we must inform the DVLA of the modification and have them update the logbook to accurately reflect the vehicles identity as a kit car. This will involve an IVA which is expensive and has to be paid every time you retake the test if it fails. Plus if it fails on something substantial it can be expensive to resolve. Also, without receipts you may end up with a Q plate but its something we all take on with a kit car (unless we build a DNA).

If you don't register it properly an MOT station can refuse to test the vehicle, you run the risk of the Police stopping and seizing the vehicle and there's also the chance that your insurance may void for not having the vehicle properly registered with the DVLA (they do like their little get out clauses). Of course, you don't hear of many seizures but then the kit car community is relatively small and most do register their vehicles properly. Do you want to run the risk of being that unlucky one who has his car seized? (The courts love to make an example, and a Lambo kit is a high spec example for them).

IMO the law tends to follow a trend and the regulations are tightening up especially with the EU involvement. You only have to consider the European Commissions proposals on cars retaining their identical specifications. With this legislation, something as simple as fitting newer lights to a car could result in the car automatically failing its MOT. Personally, I would take it for an IVA and get it through before the regulations become so tight you can't change a brake bulb without some kind of advisory test required. Who knows, in 2016/17 the EU could introduce a legislation starting that all kit cars must have an IVA or be removed from the road, and the test might be more extensive and expensive by then...

A properly registered car is worth more and you have the peace of mind every time you drive it. An IVA isn't that frightening and it does ensure your car is safe for the road. But its up to you. It might be worth having a read of the IVA test procedure and then check the points on the car to see if you think it would pass.

[Lacie]

Is a extreme Murcielago classed as a rebuilt vehicle or a radically altered vehicle? 

Link below
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/overview

Its a complex, thorny issue because of the different ways in which a vehicle can be modified and assessed. You could try to get it through as a RAV but it depends on how lazy/stupid the assessor is. To qualify for RAV there must be no modifications to the vehicles integral structure (its original identity must remain in tact and only its image changes) - I suspect a DNA Ferrari's qualify for a RAV.

When assessing a modified/rebuilt vehicle, the DVLA need to establish whether the original identity has been compromised by the changes made. If a vehicle has been modified from the original manufacturer’s specification or if not enough of the original components have been retained in the build, the vehicle identity will change and IVA will be required to register with an alternative registration number. Cutting the monocoque or chassis is considered to be modifying the vehicle from its original specification.

Any modification to the chassis/monocoque body is considered to render the vehicle no longer original specification or of original identity and therefore it can't qualify for RAV, it becomes a kit conversion and requires an IVA.

[CdRsKuLL]

I was wondering if you could simple make sure the insurance is named 'MR2 - Murcielago replica' and have done with it?

[APDevelopments]

Ok so what do I need to do once I take delivery of the car?
I won't be driving the car very much until everything's sorted.
I'm buying the car as a on going project and want to do things by the book.

[Lacie]

Ok so what do I need to do once I take delivery of the car?
I won't be driving the car very much until everything's sorted.
I'm buying the car as a on going project and want to do things by the book.

I’d start by downloading the IVA manual:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1

If you have a read through that you’ll be able to check your vehicle over for any faults which could save you money on a failed test. The biggest fail is usually lights and exhaust, so check the exhaust is not too loud and the lights are operative, secure and aligned.

Phone the DVLA and ask to speak to someone knowledgable about an IVA (most of them have no idea about kit cars or IVA’s). Inform them that you’ve purchased a kit car and the chassis/monocoque has been modified for the kit and you suspect you may need an IVA to register the vehicle. If you’re incredibly lucky they’ll offer an assessment and you might be able to bypass the IVA. If not, they’ll ask you to download the IVA application form (or offer to post it to you). During the call, they may also ask you for the current V5 information. As soon as you give it to them your car will be de-registered and you’ll no longer be able to drive it on a public road.

You’ll receive an appointment to a DVLA/VOSA centre within about a month of sending the application. You have to transport your car there, you won’t be allowed to drive it. The test usually takes a couple of hours so be prepared to sit around (and usually also sit in your car revving the engine and hitting the lights when told too).

You may be asked to provide receipts in order to prove identity and work carried out on the car. Ask the person your buying from if he has any documentation at all, any build threads, web pages, any pictures of the build etc. These can all come in useful. Depending on what is original and what isn't on the car, you may be able to sweet talk VOSA about not having any receipts and you’ll receive a plate based on the year of the MR2. If not, they’ll issue you with a Q plate.

You are usually free to name the make and model of the car to whatever you want provided its not misleading. Typically kit builders of the same cars agree on what to name the make and model because when everyone has the same kit name on the V5 it becomes easier for identification and the model becomes known to the police. I’m not sure if anyone has settled on make/models here for the Murci’s or the Ferrari’s. I would advise to keep it clear and descriptive (Make: Extreme, Model: Lambo Kit Car, for example) because when the police radio through this is the information they’ll receive back which will determine whether you’re about to be pulled (although they’ll usually pull you just to admire the car).

[Lacie]

Just to add, although it seems long winded it is worth taking the IVA. Now the MOT is fully computerised, changes to the car can be recorded and sent to the DVLA database and any discrepancies from the details recorded on the V5 and from the MOT report or a roadside spot check can result in the DVLA withdrawing your V5, putting your car off the road.

Although you can appeal against the decision, you then have to take the car for an IVA to get it back on the road otherwise the vehicle cannot be re-registered.

[APDevelopments]

Ok. Sounds straight forward.
I won't get it de registered yet as I need to move it about until I get some of the bugs sorted.
A couple of garages I need to get it to. Once I'm ready I will go for the IVA test.
Only local garages tho. Just down the road stuff.
If given a Q plate. Can you put a dateless private reg on it rather then having the Q of shame plate fitted.
A Q plate is like putting a cone coller on your dog. Cone of shame. 
Oh sorry to anybody who has a q plate. No offence. It's just my opinion.

[Lacie]

A Q plate is like putting a cone coller on your dog. Cone of shame. 

My thoughts exactly lol

Q plates can't be replaced with another plate so you'll need to do your best to make sure you don't get lumbered with a plate of shame.

[APDevelopments]

im really gutted that all this has cropped up.
I was hoping that it was straight forward.
Because it's incorrectly registered the car is also uninsurable as I've just found out.
No insurance company will insure a car that is registered as a MR2 but has a Lamborghini body.
You don't spend 20k on a car to have all these nightmares.
I might have to pull out of the purchase because if this.
I'm really gutted and I'm going to put my head down the toilet now.

[Lacie]

im really gutted that all this has cropped up.
I was hoping that it was straight forward.

  Sorry, it wasn't my intention to cause problems, just offer the legal stance with the DVLA and VOSA. Unfortunately nothing involving a kit car is ever straight forward and with cars like these there's a lot more to it than just build, MOT and drive.

Because it's incorrectly registered the car is also uninsurable as I've just found out.
No insurance company will insure a car that is registered as a MR2 but has a Lamborghini body.
You don't spend 20k on a car to have all these nightmares.
I might have to pull out of the purchase because if this.

I had a feeling they may void the insurance if it wasn't properly registered but didn't know they wouldn't insure it at all.

Why don't you explain the position to the seller and offer to complete purchase of the car on the premise that you take it for an IVA and that it passes? If the seller is confident about the quality of the cars build he/she should have no problem with it going for an IVA. If it fails, its £450 rather than 20k plus you'll have a list of the failures. You could then negotiate a better price considering the work that needs doing to pass the IVA. If it passes, just buy the car outright.

[APDevelopments]

No worries really.
Fortunately I have spoken to Adrian flux insurance and they have confirmed that I can insure the car as a kit car.
I will have full cover regardless of what's on the V5.
I'm very glad about this as I need it insured sitting on my driveway and in my garage. What if it got nicked or decided to spontaneously combust in my garage.
I would have lost the whole lot.
My plans with the car is to get it home. Maybe take a few of the neighbours kids around the block for a quick ride in it. Then!
I'm going to gut it inside and out. Yes. Completely strip it down to the bare shell. Engine out. Everything.
I want to Completely rewire and rebuild whole car and slowely put everything back replacing parts with new parts as I go along to my specification.
At the moment the wiring is a complete mess things don't work. Some things do work. Loads of bugs.
When I've finished the car then will it go for a IVA. Because I know everything will be perfect.
I'm buying it as a project kit car and I will show my progress with the work.
Why am I so interested in is one? Firstly a Murcie is seriously rare. Secondly all the hard body work has been done.
So I just need to rebuild the rest of the car.
When finished. I will be a proud owner of a seriously beautiful Murcielago.

[Lacie]

My plans with the car is to get it home. Maybe take a few of the neighbours kids around the block for a quick ride in it. Then!
I'm going to gut it inside and out. Yes. Completely strip it down to the bare shell. Engine out. Everything.
I want to Completely rewire and rebuild whole car and slowely put everything back replacing parts with new parts as I go along to my specification.

Keep all the receipts for everything you buy/fit, you can submit them with the Built Up Vehicle Inspection Report